247: Balancing Enrollment and Staff Retention in Childcare with Chanie Wilschanski

In this episode of "Child Care Conversations," co-hosts Kate and Carrie chat with Chanie Wilschanski, CEO of Schools of Excellence. Chanie shares her expertise on managing childcare programs, especially during challenging times like the COVID pandemic. She introduces the "five gears" of childcare management: enrollment, staff retention, parent engagement, financial health, and program quality. 

Chanie emphasizes focusing on just two gears at a time to boost productivity and avoid burnout. The discussion also covers balancing responsibilities, effective leadership, and the importance of financial transparency. It's a treasure trove of insights for anyone in childcare management! 

Learn more at: https://schoolsofexcellence.com/media/

Take the quiz: https://schoolsofexcellence.com/fivegears

Thanks for Listening 🎧

• Want to learn more? Check out our book; "From Overwhelmed to I Got This: Guaranteed Success Route to Directing Your Childcare Center" 📖
• Join our Facebook Group for Childcare professionals!
• Join our Podcast Newsletter!
• Want to be a guest on our podcast? Go to our website to learn more.
• Are you looking for director training in Texas? Check out our Texas Director Website for our training and additional resources!

Transcript

Marie 00:00:01  Welcome to Child Care Conversations with Kate and Carrie.

Carrie 00:00:05  We have a guest today who used to wear a lab coat, and now she's given it up. And she's here today to talk to us about keeping your gears spinning in a positive direction, instead of locking up and freezing up your entire company. And then you get off the rails. So we're hoping that we can get you going smoothly at your program. And we discussed this earlier and decided that she will introduce herself because we will ruin her name. So.

Chanie  00:00:39  All good. Thanks, Carrie. My name is Chanie Wilschanski and I am originally from New York. I actually built many different schools and ran schools in New York City for over two decades. and then we moved to Florida, during Covid. I'm a mom of four kids, ages four, 7 to 14. and now I am the CEO and founder of Schools of Excellence and the Schools of Excellence podcast, and I'm grateful to be here. So thank you for having me. Well, we are excited to have you here.

Kate 00:01:07  And I am really, really excited to kind of delve into your five gears. And I loved we chatted a little bit before the podcast, and I loved something you said really resonated to me, which is you might be focusing on two, but you never let the others go. So can you introduce the concept of the five gears and then, you know, we'll I'm sure we'll ask you question.

Chanie  00:01:30  Yeah. Yeah. Of course. Absolutely, Kate. So let's just go kind of give some context for everyone that's listening, because I think it's so important to understand how other industries work before we really apply the same principles or the same matrix to early childhood. So Google everyone knows that company. It's $1 billion industry. And they've created a system called the OKR system, which is objective key result. And the OKR system is really about that. Every single department in Google can only work on three objectives per quarter, because what their data has shown then that every department, if they're only working on 2 or 3 things at a time, they consistently outperform any department that's trying to juggle more.

Chanie  00:02:11  So that's Google. That's $1 billion industry, has way more money, time, energy and resources than any child care company. So Toyota also has a similar concept where they only have two major improvement initiatives at any given time. And each department that does that achieves 47% higher productivity than any department that doesn't and tries to improve 4 or 5 major initiatives at a time.

Kate 00:02:34  Okay, so wait wait wait wait, I got it.

Chanie  00:02:36  Go ahead, go ahead.

Kate 00:02:38  Go ahead, go ahead. I told you we were going to do that.

Chanie  00:02:41  Interrupt me. Go ahead, go ahead.

Kate 00:02:44  Okay, so we are talking major international corporations. Yes. And so they already are not trying to do everything. And where all the hats at the same time.

Chanie  00:02:56  Yep.

Kate 00:02:56  Yep. So I think right there. Okay. We're done.

Chanie  00:03:01  There we go.

Carrie 00:03:01  Toyota thinks that. Trying to do. Trying to wear seven hats at the same time is too much. Then maybe all of us child care directors need to give ourselves a break when we're stacking up hats like Bartholomew Cummins.

Kate 00:03:16  Yeah.

Chanie  00:03:17  Yeah. So the thing that we really need to understand when it comes to, working and choosing what you're going to work on, is there is a really big lie that's been perpetuated for such a long time when it comes to leadership, and that lie around school. Leadership is be everything for everyone, do everything for everyone, and then you are enough and then you are good enough, and then you're a good leader, and then you're a good person, and then you're a good wife, a good spouse, a good mom, a good this a good that. And it consistently sets. It's not just about, oh my God, I'm just going to come here one day. and then eventually I'll achieve this like peak result. It is consistently setting us up for perpetual failure. Esther Perel is a known licensed psychotherapist. She's based out of New York City. She has a podcast, and one of the things she talks about so beautifully, eloquently described about marriage, which is a different institution, is marriage is a underresourced system.

Chanie  00:04:12  I'm sorry. It's an overtaxed system with an under-resourced reality and overtaxed system with an under-resourced reality. And when I look at childcare, it's the exact same thing. This is an organization. This is an ecosystem that is so overtaxed with the amount of responsibilities. But it's an under-resourced reality. And so what we have to look at is not so much about, oh, I wish this person was in government. I wish this person was our lawmaker, which this person was our mayor, which this person was the president. It's really understanding. Stop trying to build systems and ecosystems that are contingent about forces that are outside of your control and build ecosystem, that it doesn't matter what's happening in the economy, doesn't matter what's happening in government, which are both forces that you have zero control over. Let's be in charge of the things that you have total agency of.

Kate 00:05:01  I love that, I love that. So, Carrie, I know that you often talk about different concepts that are right on that about basically being self-contained.

Kate 00:05:11  What do you think is the best way to steer the ship from here?

Carrie 00:05:14  Well, I think we need to label those five gears because we.

Kate 00:05:17  Yeah.

Carrie 00:05:18  The the listener.

Chanie  00:05:19  Exactly.

Carrie 00:05:20  You're like, okay, she said five gears. It's been two minutes. Where's my.

Kate 00:05:24  Five years.

Carrie 00:05:26  Time? Gears are.

Chanie  00:05:27  Sure. So I one of the things that I do as a coach is I really take time to constantly go back and watch the game film. So if you look at pro and Olympic athletes, when they go on the playing field, when they come off the field, a big part of their practice is they watch the game film. Why? Because part of becoming elite at your level is you have to watch your previous performances and see, where do I improve? Where do I get better? So I want to be an elite coach, an elite master in my field. And so I take the time to go back and watch coaching calls with clients who are directors, who are owners, who are regional managers.

Chanie  00:06:01  And when I took the time to go back and watch hours and hours and hours of footage, I looked at what are the patterns of all the activity that childcare leaders are doing across the globe? And it came up to these five things. Now when you hear these five things, it can't just be five. It has to be more. I am telling you, it's not. We have battle tested this over and over again. So what are the five gears? Enrollment, staff retention, parent engagement, financial health and strategic growth? Every single thing that you ever do in your childcare will always come under these five things. And so when you understand that there's only five things you can ever work on, and then you take the principle of Google, of Toyota, these billion dollar industries, and you understand that you can only work on two gears at a time to strategically improve them while the other three are in strategic maintenance. We never neglect a gear. That's why it's called the five Gears, because they constantly have to work in motion.

Chanie  00:07:01  So what happens a lot of times is you try to do everything, but because you're a human, you eventually give out at a certain point and then you start to neglect things, but you don't neglect them on purpose. You're like, I'm just going to get to it soon. But instead of saying, I'm going to get to it soon. Design your ecosystem that you are strategically working on two gears, while the other three maintain themselves until you're ready to give it the time and attention that it deserves.

Kate 00:07:26  Absolutely. So let's talk real quick about what that might look like. If you're a director listening to this call and we've just talked about we've labeled the five gears and you're like, no, I gotta do all three. I gotta build the enrollment. I gotta keep the staff. I gotta keep the parents happy. Those other two things are for the owner. Yeah. How do we. Let's do it. You know, let's talk to that director who's listening to this going. That's not my thing.

Kate 00:07:53  And I need to do all three all the time. How do we get to.

Chanie  00:07:57  Sure. So there's a couple of different layers to that question. So the first thing is, is that, within the five years, there's four types of work that sit under each gear, meaning no one gear is any single person's responsibility. Even if you have an enrollment specialist who you pay, I don't care how much money you pay her. No one person should own any gear, so there's no such a thing as the owner is in charge of the financial gear. No. Everyone is in charge of the financial gear. Down to the teacher. And I'm going to walk you through exactly what that looks like. Every single stakeholder in the school is responsible for every single gear. This is a whole separate conversation. But this is why I don't do job descriptions. I do calendar based roles. There's no such a thing as a job description, so it's not my job description. Yeah, well, the school needs to work on enrollment now, so even though it's not in your job description, it needs to be in your calendar because we need enrollment now.

Chanie  00:08:50  So I actually don't like job descriptions, but that's a separate conversation. But let's talk about what are the four types of work within each gear okay.

Kate 00:08:58  Okay.

Chanie  00:08:58  Hold on one. Oh no problem.

Kate 00:09:00  We'll be here all day if we if we're not careful. Because. I'm sorry. I have questions. All right. So, let's look at those four, and then let's take one, and we'll just put down for one instead of trying to build it down for all.

Chanie  00:09:12  500%, 100%. So I'm going to take high level. The four types of work. Okay. There's strategic level work that is typically the owner or you know, whoever's sitting in the strategic level, strategic level work in each gear is setting the vision of that gear, analyzing the trends in that gear, making high level decisions in that gear, setting the long term targets of that particular gear. So staff retention, what's the target? What's the vision for that financial what's the target? What's the vision for that? parent engagement.

Chanie  00:09:42  What's the target? What's the bit. So the owner or the strategist. The strategic level sets all of those things. That is one type of work. The second type of work is implementation level work. Those are the directors and managers. The directors and managers within each of those gears create the systems, design the protocols, lead the training, optimize processes, create the SOPs. That's the implementation level. So while the owner might be setting the trends for the financial year, the director is possibly creating the systems and the SOPs and processes to make sure there's food control, to make sure there's supply management, to make sure there's space optimization, all of the things that come under financials. That's the second level of work. The third level of work is support level. That's typically the administrative team. That's the data maintenance. That's the communication tracking. That's the process execution. That's the daily operational management.

Kate 00:10:33  Okay, wait, I know we have directors that are listening to going I do that, I do that, I do that.

Kate 00:10:39  So we're we're three in and the directors are already going. But I do all of that. So. How?

Chanie  00:10:46  I'll explain how we break it up.

Kate 00:10:47  Okay.

Chanie  00:10:47  All right. There's classroom level. Classroom level. Are the teachers right. They are the direct line of implementation for certain things. So they support initiatives. They create experiences for the kids. They do family engagement. They're doing direct implementation in the classroom. Now, for the person that's listening to this and saying, well, I'm the owner, I'm the director, I do all of those things. That's okay. If if you're still a social entrepreneur, if you're still solo running the place, then the way you design your calendar has to be unbelievably disciplined, which means there needs to be blocks of time that says, I'm doing strategic level enrollment now, and this is the block of time for it. And then there's a block of time where I'm doing implementation level of enrollment. And so I'm doing all the activity that sits under implementation level, or I'm doing admin level.

Chanie  00:11:31  When you try to do all of those things for all the five gears, of course your head's exploding and you can't sleep at night and you come home and you want to binge watch and just be in a coma because your your brain cannot hold anything anymore?

Kate 00:11:44  Absolutely. I feel I'm feeling that way, Carrie. And I've had those discussions just within our own business over the last few months, and it's so important if you are a director and you are listening and your owner has not pulled you into the strategic plan. You know, I don't know about you, Kerry, but, you know, I realize that not every owner, not every director. So I was one of Carrie's directors. Not every director gets to work closely and forever, with their owner. And so how could a director and. Carrie, this is as much a question for you. How can a director go. Hey, owner, I need your vision. Like, how could they share that? Because I know that we could analyze all of this.

Kate 00:12:27  Like, for seriously ours. I am sure there's a book somewhere. And we know that there's definitely things that you will give them as resources. They can work with you. But, Carrie, what would you say to the director that thinks the owner should be doing this. And like they haven't looped them in.

Carrie 00:12:43  So I think we've got two sides of that right. We've got owners who have founder syndrome. And they want to micromanage everything, and everything has to be their baby. and I will tell those owners, stop it. You are strangling your baby. so from the owner's side, if you are trying to do all three of those levels, then you are not allowing your business to thrive. You hired people because you thought they were good. You didn't hire them just to be a warm body in a director's chair. Trust your own judgment and give them some responsibilities. And again, I've been there and had a hard time the first time I did it, man. Whew. That was hard the first time I did it.

Carrie 00:13:29  But then this amazing thing happened and I had, like, so many hours free in my life. But then as the director side, how do I convince my owner that I have to have insight into the finances in our director credentialing class. We had to get rid of one of the assessments. One of the things we were teaching directors, because so many people who were trying to learn how to be a director, their owners would give them absolutely no insight into the finance. So we were trying to get them to do a basic budget in their program as part of their director credentialing. And so many owners were like, no, you don't need to know any of the finances, just get me more enrollment, which doesn't work, because then there's no motivation, because there's no buy in. You don't know why you're doing it. It's just like the beginning part of Karate Kid, you know, wash on, wash off, wax on, wax off. Right. You're asking the directors to do stuff, and they don't know that this is teaching them the basic mechanics of being able to beat up a bully.

Carrie 00:14:36  So, Like we have to, as a director, have a conversation with the owner and say, I understand that you want me to keep enrollment. Say they're dealing with enrollment and staff retention. So those are the two gears they're working on, and they're like, I feel like these are in contradiction because if I get the enrollment numbers the way you want, then my staff are going to start quitting. So you have to, as the director, have that conversation with the owner and say, if I take enrollment to where you want, the staff are going to start quitting. How can we get both of these happening? Because I hear you that you want this, and I'm here to be your hands in the business, but I need you to help me understand. And there will be some owners who are like, okay, if we have four more kids enrolled, then I can give people raises. If we don't get four more kids enrolled, I can't give raises. And that's the level of insight they're willing to give.

Chanie  00:15:38  I have so many things I could say. So you tell me where you want me to go because I have 20 different comments on what you said. You pick one thing going on the five gears. You want me to respond to some of the things that you shared. Like tell me where you want me to go.

Carrie 00:15:50  So it's a conversation.

Kate 00:15:51  Respond to work?

Chanie  00:15:53  Sure. So I think I think there's a couple of things. First thing is when a director comes. I just had this conversation yesterday with an owner. Whenever a director comes to the owner and says, you can't pick up enrollment because teachers are going to quit. That is a director who's come to the edge of their growth zone. So they're at their growth edge. They do not have brain capacity, energy, nervous system regulation to manage the influx of teacher emotions that are going to come at them. So they are putting a blockade preemptively to say, I can't deal with all the pushback I'm going to get from teachers, so I'm just going to preemptively do that.

Chanie  00:16:29  So when enrollment has to hit a certain number, obviously legally within ratio and all of that. And the directors response is teachers are going to quit. The owner has to have a conversation with the director about the level of leadership that this person can handle, and has to increase that person's skill set before we even start working on any of the other gears, because no director should ever come forward and say you can enroll or teachers are going to quit, that is a mindset. No from the no go. The other thing to look at as well is when we're looking at getting buy in and the owner keeps blocking the finances, that's a different conversation with the owner, where we need to understand what about the financials is worrisome for you. Why are you afraid about money? Are you afraid you're going to go bankrupt? Are you afraid you're going to lose your business? Are you afraid you're not gonna be able to provide for your family? Like, what is it about giving visibility and transparency in the financials that makes you sick? Because what you need to understand is that the visibility and transparency into the financials makes everyone more profitable and more wealthy.

Chanie  00:17:34  So the fact that you don't want to give visibility. I know you want everyone to be more profitable, even if selfishly, you just want to be more profitable. But if you do not show visibility here, this is not about. They don't need to know this. No, this is a you game. Let's have a you conversation about your understanding of money and then we can talk about other conversations.

Kate 00:17:53  Oh my Lord, can we? I just want to keep rewinding that and scream that from the I'm like I can have that in every any owner workshop I ever do. Just go here, just listen to this.

Chanie  00:18:04  Just listen to this.

Kate 00:18:05  Yeah.

Carrie 00:18:06  And that, you know, highlights the reason why there have to be director coaches and there have to be other coaches because you talked about, you know, the director has to uplevel her skills or his skills in the 4% that are. Yeah. Then, they have to level their skills. And sometimes the owner is not the right person to help them level up.

Chanie  00:18:27  Exactly.

Carrie 00:18:27  So the owner might have to pony up some money for a coach, for the director, and the owner is going to constantly run up against their own issues that they need a coach for. And tomorrow's demons are or today's demons are tomorrow's dollars.

Chanie  00:18:46  Yeah.

Carrie 00:18:46  Yeah. and so helping people learn that nobody expects you to do this on your own. I know a lot of owners and directors think that they have to do it on their own, but I my I always fall back on Michael Jordan. He did not get those rings on his own. Yeah, he had coaches. His coaches had mentors. There were other people on his team. You have to have coaches and mentors if you want to succeed. Steve Jobs had coaches. Steve Jobs had mentors like you don't get to be a billionaire by just trying to do everything on your own. You need people to pour into you and help you learn more and see stuff from a different perspective.

Chanie  00:19:33  So we can understand that on a simple level. Like, of course I need mentors and coaches, but we also have to understand that from the age of three, we are indoctrinated in a school system.

Chanie  00:19:43  That solo performance is everything. Did you get the aid? Did you get the hunter? Did you get this thing? Everything in the schooling, infrastructure and elementary school and high school and college is about a singularity performance. It's only in the last ten, 15 years that schools and teachers are trying to promote more group projects and more group work, and getting a grade on a group level kind of thing. That really wasn't the case for so long. And so pride and ego mask even the most best of intentions. And so the thing that I always encourage leaders to start to think about more than anything is where is your ego right now? Where is your humility? When I was a director, I would always tell any teacher that I hired. I said, there are two things that you need to know how to do here. And really, it's one thing. It's humility. That is the only skill you need here because one, you're 18, you're going to make 1 billion mistakes in your first year of teaching here.

Chanie  00:20:36  And two, the only way to survive here is to ask for help. I do not expect you to know all the answers. And actually, if you don't ask me questions, I know you're messing up and I'm actually going to come hunting after you to see why aren't you asking me questions? And that immediately created that space for you're 18, you don't know anything. You're going to make a million mistakes. I know that I am here to guide you, but you have to have the humility to come forward. That's part of paying it forward as a mentor. I was 18 once. I made a thousand mistakes, and my mentors were incredible and held grace for me and protected me and taught me and mentored me and role modeled for me. And that's what I'm doing for other people. But we are raising such an entitled, egotistical generation that comes in and says, I know how to do it on the first go. You're 20, you've been in a classroom for five minutes. You think you know how to do a transition.

Chanie  00:21:27  You think you know how to run a parent conference. You think you know how to have a difficult conversation? Are you kidding me? So that's a whole separate conversation. Now I'm on a soapbox I want to go back to.

Kate 00:21:37  That's okay, because I'm laughing. I'm like going, oh, here we go. Where's those.

Chanie  00:21:41  I like? I get so mad. It's very frustrating for me when young people come in thinking that they have to know everything. And I'm like, stop. You don't have to know everything I'm asking. You ask questions.

Carrie 00:21:54  I think for them it's very much a fear. If I don't know everything, you're going to fire me. And I have this job. Exactly. Because my parents kicked me off of their cell phone bill.

Kate 00:22:04  Let's talk about that for one second.

Carrie 00:22:06  My own cell phone now.

Chanie  00:22:08  Yes, I want to talk about this one thing here, and then I want to go back to the five gears.

Kate 00:22:11  Okay. Except we've only got about three minutes.

Chanie  00:22:14  Oh my gosh.

Kate 00:22:14  Okay.

Chanie  00:22:16  So I want to talk about this.

Kate 00:22:17  Be here all day.

Chanie  00:22:18  Yeah I want to talk about this concept of prey versus predator because I think this is an important thing to understand. And then I want to go into the five gears.. So if you look in the in the jungle, right, the prey, anyone who's preyed upon it has quick, jolting movements. Right. They're always swiveling their head. They're always jumping around. They're jumping. The lion is slow, is methodical, is ease. And then he makes his pounce. If you look at the workplace, the leader who has true confidence speaks slower, speaks calmer, has poise, has a pause in her voice versus the young. Employees are always bumbling around all over the place. Right? Why? Because it mimics the exact same thing. They're afraid. They're fearful in the same way that prey. If they if they walk slow, they're dead. So the teachers who are coming in are terrified. If I don't know everything, I'm dead.

Chanie  00:23:09  I'm out. And the leader needs to create a safe environment. Safety is signaled through slowness, through the pause. Which brings me back to the five years. Stop doing everything because you are creating Eating frenzy and cultural craziness in your organization by trying to do everything. So how do you know what to focus on? We have a five year diagnostic. I'm going to give that for free here. As part of being on the show, the five year diagnostic walks you through questions so that you can assess which gear do I actually need to work on in the next 60 days? What are the two gears that are the lowest score for me, that I need to create concrete goals to work on? And then I come to my leadership team and I say, these are the two gears. All of our calendars have to be stripped down. What activity do we need to actually do in order to hit this goal? So if enrollment is your goal, so is the gear. So many people say things. We work on enrollment.

Chanie  00:24:05  I'm like, what do you do? One person said, we changed our answering machine. We do this, we do this. I updated my website. I post it on TikTok six times. I'm like, none of that is close to the cash. I call it green and red activities. Green is cash. Red is not what things actually drive. Enrollment A tour. A follow up. A follow up email. A parent ambassador program. Marketing campaigns. All of these things. None of that exists on your calendar. And I know that because you're not hitting your enrollment targets. I tell this to leaders all the time. I know in five seconds exactly what you value. Show me your calendar. Show me your bank account. I can tell you in five minutes all of your values. What you spend money on and what you spend your time on is exactly what you value at a conversation with the SAS owners. Like, I love my family, I value my family. I'm like, no you don't.

Chanie  00:24:52  Because you travel 90 hours a week. You don't value family and that's okay. But stop lying to yourself that you value family because if you did, you wouldn't be working 90 hours a week. You're in a season now that you're scaling your company and you want to sell it. Enjoy. I love it, but don't tell me that you value family, I value family, I work 20 hours a week. That's it. I stop at 20 hours. I have four young kids there. Once they're young, once, I will always have a chance to make more money. I will never get a chance again to raise my kids ever, ever, ever again. That's it. This is it. So when people tell me I value you sound like. Show me your calendar. When was the last time you took your kid on a date? You value marriage. When was the last time you went with your husband somewhere? You value these things. It's important to you. Do you spend time on them? Do you spend money on them? So when a leader tells me we have to work on enrollment.

Chanie  00:25:42  No you don't. In your mind, you think you do. But your calendar and your bank account tell a totally different story.

Carrie 00:25:48  Oh, I mean.

Kate 00:25:49  I think I think we actually both can all get, like, there's a reason why Kerry and I are more doing this stuff now that we are empty nesters than we did when we were your age, because when we were your age, we had I had four kids, Kerry had two at home and I had.

Carrie 00:26:05  Two at home who had significant medical issues. So like.

Marie 00:26:09  Just.

Chanie  00:26:09  Compounds everything. Kerry.

Kate 00:26:12  Absolutely.

Marie 00:26:12  Yeah.

Chanie  00:26:12  Everything.

Marie 00:26:13  Yes, ma'am.

Kate 00:26:15  I, I don't understand.

Carrie 00:26:16  I guess I have a weird skewed vision because I was not a stay at home parent when my kids were really young. I was a stay at home parent when my kids were in middle school and high school. I was like, you need to know all your friends.

Marie 00:26:29  Yes, exactly.

Chanie  00:26:31  I am right with you.

Kate 00:26:32  Okay? I know that this could be this self is a book.

Kate 00:26:37  So on that note. Yes. So I am going to say I want to be that lioness. Because you know what? The lions not going to eat if I don't do something about it. So on that note, because he's going to starve because he's going to wait for me. so as those lionesses are getting ready to to do what they need to do. How can people get in touch with you? What's the best way for them to get more information from you? Because they're like, okay, I did the assessment. Now what? Yes.

Chanie  00:27:07  Great question. So yeah, you'll go to schools of excellence.com. That'll be the place that will send, your guys to, to do the diagnostic. Once you do the diagnostic, you can book a profit and growth call. This is a special conversation that we do with people that helps them find profit inside of their organization right away. So I can send you all those links. And we live, you know, on the podcast, our Schools of Excellence podcast, our website and social.

Chanie  00:27:30  And I just I really want to thank you for the opportunity to share these stories and to share this message. So thank you for having me. Truly. I absolutely love this conversation. I hope we could do it again.

Kate 00:27:38  Oh, absolutely. I think there's about six more that we could have. So. Okay, Carrie, what do we need to say from here?

Carrie 00:27:45  Okay, so if you got some value from this show, share it with other people who need to know. And we will talk to you next week after you've gone in and left a review on your podcast. Player of choice. Talk to you next week.

Marie 00:28:00  Thank you for listening to Child Care Conversations with Kate and Carrie. Want to learn more? Check out our website at Texas Director. And if you've learned anything today, leave us a comment below and share the show.